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	<title>Comments on: What Would Jesus Say about Redefining Marriage?</title>
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	<description>Connecting the dots between Catholic faith and culture</description>
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		<title>By: Ness</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-4299</link>
		<dc:creator>Ness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 02:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Monsignor, the denigration of chastity (not just for celibate priests, but for everybody) seems to be a prevailing theme nowadays. Even marriage is now often ridiculed as being a perversion of nature. Do you have a post on the subject?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monsignor, the denigration of chastity (not just for celibate priests, but for everybody) seems to be a prevailing theme nowadays. Even marriage is now often ridiculed as being a perversion of nature. Do you have a post on the subject?</p>
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		<title>By: Catholic Pilgrim</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3617</link>
		<dc:creator>Catholic Pilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3617</guid>
		<description>I agree with the point that Msgr. Pope makes above, but perhaps I can offer something that may be helpful (?) in expressing more aspects of the positive vision of Church teaching on sexuality.

As Msgr. Pope states, the Church makes no definitive assertion about the origins of unchosen same-sex attractions, although I believe that developmental psychology can offer some degree of insight.  Although the Catechism exhorts compassion and sensitivity for persons who deal with these attractions, which are not understood as sinful in and of themselves, I think such persons may frequently feel like (whether it’s true or not) that they’re viewed by other Catholics with a dismissive platitude of &quot;Well, that&#039;s the cross God gave you.  Best of luck in bearing it.&quot;  It is true that all of us have crosses that, even despite the best experiences of human compassion, solidarity, or empathy (if we are blessed enough to experience them), still can be completely understood only by the God who, in Jesus, bears our sufferings in himself and, through the Holy Spirit, intercedes for us with &quot;inexpressible groanings&quot; (Romans 8:26).  We would do well to be gentle with one another, as we often have no knowledge of what another is going through internally.

Whatever the truth may be regarding the origins of same-sex attractions, it seems that fundamental questions concerning what constitutes manhood/masculinity or womanhood/femininity, and related questions concerning the experience of relational intimacy within the human family, are certainly involved.  Indeed, these are questions that all people deal with.  The Church teaches that men and women are equal in dignity before God as bearers of His image, but that they bear that image in different and complementary ways.  We are invited by the Church to understand ourselves as a unity of body and soul and not simply a &quot;ghost in a machine.&quot;  This understanding undergirds the Church teaching on sexual intimacy, for only within the monogamous, lifelong union of one man and one woman can sexual intimacy embody a truly complementary self-giving according to the male or female dignity that God has bestowed on a person.  Because sexual intimacy between two persons of the same sex cannot embody this complementary self-giving, such physical expression would be a diminishment, or in some degree, a negation, of the male or female dignity that God has bestowed.  Even though the capacity of the marital union to bring forth new life is the most powerful testament to its sacramental character, the marital union of infertile or older husbands and wives still has the capacity to embody self-giving in a manner that reveals the complementary goodness of fatherhood and motherhood together.  In how such couples choose to reach out to those around them, this might take the form of adopting children, giving of themselves to adult children, grandchildren, or extended family, and giving of themselves in other ways to their parish or community.

To be sure, love between persons of the same sex, as with all important non-marital relationships, can point to God and reflect dimensions of God&#039;s love.  My understanding, though, is that the Church would view this love to be of a fatherly/brotherly or motherly/sisterly nature, with everything good that may be entailed in those kinds of connections.  Scripture and the history of the Church provide examples of such love.  However, I think that because our sexualized culture finds it difficult to disentangle understandings of intimacy with the physical act of sex, the goodness to be found in this kind of love, and what it also can offer for understanding male or female dignity in relation to others, can be lost on many people.     

But regarding how to understand male or female dignity, or the spiritual dimensions of masculinity and femininity, there is so much to examine here (i.e. “the theology of the body”) that a post like this is certainly inadequate to that task.  I think that learning to understand Christ as our Elder Brother who leads us to the love of our Heavenly Father, and learning to understand Mary as our Blessed Mother, are good starting points for trying to understand these matters.  As for the matter of finding human connectedness in a society that seems intimacy-starved, I don’t have easy answers as to how to find it, but I’ll just conclude with two Scripture passages that convey something of what such connections may look like.  The Book of Proverbs tells us that “He who is a friend is always a friend, and a brother [or sister] is born for the time of stress” (Proverbs 17:17).   In his Letter to the Romans, St. Paul enjoins those in the body of Christ to “love one another with mutual affection” and to “rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:9-15).  Of course, this kind of connectedness is rare if one cannot find others in the family of God with whom to reveal and share the sorrows of our particular crosses or joys of resurrected life in Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the point that Msgr. Pope makes above, but perhaps I can offer something that may be helpful (?) in expressing more aspects of the positive vision of Church teaching on sexuality.</p>
<p>As Msgr. Pope states, the Church makes no definitive assertion about the origins of unchosen same-sex attractions, although I believe that developmental psychology can offer some degree of insight.  Although the Catechism exhorts compassion and sensitivity for persons who deal with these attractions, which are not understood as sinful in and of themselves, I think such persons may frequently feel like (whether it’s true or not) that they’re viewed by other Catholics with a dismissive platitude of &#8220;Well, that&#8217;s the cross God gave you.  Best of luck in bearing it.&#8221;  It is true that all of us have crosses that, even despite the best experiences of human compassion, solidarity, or empathy (if we are blessed enough to experience them), still can be completely understood only by the God who, in Jesus, bears our sufferings in himself and, through the Holy Spirit, intercedes for us with &#8220;inexpressible groanings&#8221; (Romans 8:26).  We would do well to be gentle with one another, as we often have no knowledge of what another is going through internally.</p>
<p>Whatever the truth may be regarding the origins of same-sex attractions, it seems that fundamental questions concerning what constitutes manhood/masculinity or womanhood/femininity, and related questions concerning the experience of relational intimacy within the human family, are certainly involved.  Indeed, these are questions that all people deal with.  The Church teaches that men and women are equal in dignity before God as bearers of His image, but that they bear that image in different and complementary ways.  We are invited by the Church to understand ourselves as a unity of body and soul and not simply a &#8220;ghost in a machine.&#8221;  This understanding undergirds the Church teaching on sexual intimacy, for only within the monogamous, lifelong union of one man and one woman can sexual intimacy embody a truly complementary self-giving according to the male or female dignity that God has bestowed on a person.  Because sexual intimacy between two persons of the same sex cannot embody this complementary self-giving, such physical expression would be a diminishment, or in some degree, a negation, of the male or female dignity that God has bestowed.  Even though the capacity of the marital union to bring forth new life is the most powerful testament to its sacramental character, the marital union of infertile or older husbands and wives still has the capacity to embody self-giving in a manner that reveals the complementary goodness of fatherhood and motherhood together.  In how such couples choose to reach out to those around them, this might take the form of adopting children, giving of themselves to adult children, grandchildren, or extended family, and giving of themselves in other ways to their parish or community.</p>
<p>To be sure, love between persons of the same sex, as with all important non-marital relationships, can point to God and reflect dimensions of God&#8217;s love.  My understanding, though, is that the Church would view this love to be of a fatherly/brotherly or motherly/sisterly nature, with everything good that may be entailed in those kinds of connections.  Scripture and the history of the Church provide examples of such love.  However, I think that because our sexualized culture finds it difficult to disentangle understandings of intimacy with the physical act of sex, the goodness to be found in this kind of love, and what it also can offer for understanding male or female dignity in relation to others, can be lost on many people.     </p>
<p>But regarding how to understand male or female dignity, or the spiritual dimensions of masculinity and femininity, there is so much to examine here (i.e. “the theology of the body”) that a post like this is certainly inadequate to that task.  I think that learning to understand Christ as our Elder Brother who leads us to the love of our Heavenly Father, and learning to understand Mary as our Blessed Mother, are good starting points for trying to understand these matters.  As for the matter of finding human connectedness in a society that seems intimacy-starved, I don’t have easy answers as to how to find it, but I’ll just conclude with two Scripture passages that convey something of what such connections may look like.  The Book of Proverbs tells us that “He who is a friend is always a friend, and a brother [or sister] is born for the time of stress” (Proverbs 17:17).   In his Letter to the Romans, St. Paul enjoins those in the body of Christ to “love one another with mutual affection” and to “rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:9-15).  Of course, this kind of connectedness is rare if one cannot find others in the family of God with whom to reveal and share the sorrows of our particular crosses or joys of resurrected life in Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Msgr. Charles Pope</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3599</link>
		<dc:creator>Msgr. Charles Pope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3599</guid>
		<description>Very intelligent argument Anonymous. Hope you don&#039;t mind that I had to edit your profanity. By the wa, I am not attracted to little boys or even to males at all. I have been sucessfully celibate for 20 years. It is a fine and fulfilling life and I recommend celibacy highly for those who are not capable of marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very intelligent argument Anonymous. Hope you don&#8217;t mind that I had to edit your profanity. By the wa, I am not attracted to little boys or even to males at all. I have been sucessfully celibate for 20 years. It is a fine and fulfilling life and I recommend celibacy highly for those who are not capable of marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3594</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3594</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re full of s----padre.  And you probably molest little boys/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re full of s&#8212;-padre.  And you probably molest little boys/</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3543</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3543</guid>
		<description>Someone (Msgr. Pope?) tell me if I&#039;m wrong here, but there is a difference between things that happened during the Crusades and the Inquisition and the enduring body of the Church&#039;s doctrinal teaching on faith and morals accumulated over the centuries.  I say this not to ignore repellent things that happened during those periods in history, but it is a distinction that one should understand.  The Church has never denied that it is comprised of sinners who have done sinful or scandalous things, often tragically in the name of Christ or His Church.  Pope John Paul II made a number of apologies for wrongdoings of Catholics over the couse of history.  But let me ask you, Cynthia, since you have raised the matter --have you studied much on the historical periods of the Crusades or the Inquisition?  Do you understand much of the context of what was happening at those times in history?  

Although history is a great interest of mine, I cannot say that I&#039;m an expert on the history here.  However, I think that just a few historical issues that it would be important to understand or investigate, if you&#039;re going to insert this into an argument, include the following: the Church&#039;s role in holding together Western civilization after the fall of the Roman Empire, the roles of Church and state during the events in question and who did what, the extent to which Muslim expansionism or heretical movements posed real threats, and any differences (?) between what people did and what a particular pope, or the Church as a whole, taught or warranted.

I raise this point because I think it&#039;s easy for a 21st Century person, if he or she hasn&#039;t studied history extensively, to assume a morally superior posture to people of these earlier ages because they didn&#039;t share the assumptions of good post-Enlightenment people who, in a live-and-let-live manner, defend religious liberty or believe that religion is a private affair or that all religions are just different paths to the same God.  Cynthia, If anything I&#039;ve said in this last statement does not reflect your own level of knowledge, or attitude, or beliefs, then please correct me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone (Msgr. Pope?) tell me if I&#8217;m wrong here, but there is a difference between things that happened during the Crusades and the Inquisition and the enduring body of the Church&#8217;s doctrinal teaching on faith and morals accumulated over the centuries.  I say this not to ignore repellent things that happened during those periods in history, but it is a distinction that one should understand.  The Church has never denied that it is comprised of sinners who have done sinful or scandalous things, often tragically in the name of Christ or His Church.  Pope John Paul II made a number of apologies for wrongdoings of Catholics over the couse of history.  But let me ask you, Cynthia, since you have raised the matter &#8211;have you studied much on the historical periods of the Crusades or the Inquisition?  Do you understand much of the context of what was happening at those times in history?  </p>
<p>Although history is a great interest of mine, I cannot say that I&#8217;m an expert on the history here.  However, I think that just a few historical issues that it would be important to understand or investigate, if you&#8217;re going to insert this into an argument, include the following: the Church&#8217;s role in holding together Western civilization after the fall of the Roman Empire, the roles of Church and state during the events in question and who did what, the extent to which Muslim expansionism or heretical movements posed real threats, and any differences (?) between what people did and what a particular pope, or the Church as a whole, taught or warranted.</p>
<p>I raise this point because I think it&#8217;s easy for a 21st Century person, if he or she hasn&#8217;t studied history extensively, to assume a morally superior posture to people of these earlier ages because they didn&#8217;t share the assumptions of good post-Enlightenment people who, in a live-and-let-live manner, defend religious liberty or believe that religion is a private affair or that all religions are just different paths to the same God.  Cynthia, If anything I&#8217;ve said in this last statement does not reflect your own level of knowledge, or attitude, or beliefs, then please correct me.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3508</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3508</guid>
		<description>Going to shortcut it, as I want to go play in the snow: The Crusades and The Inquisition. Dying to hear how this wasn&#039;t the Catholic Church at its worst in history...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going to shortcut it, as I want to go play in the snow: The Crusades and The Inquisition. Dying to hear how this wasn&#8217;t the Catholic Church at its worst in history&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3504</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3504</guid>
		<description>Cynthia,

Can you provide some examples, with historical reference and a good understanding of cultural context, of &quot;the pretty heinous things&quot; that supposedly the Church has taught?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cynthia,</p>
<p>Can you provide some examples, with historical reference and a good understanding of cultural context, of &#8220;the pretty heinous things&#8221; that supposedly the Church has taught?</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3497</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3497</guid>
		<description>Anon wasn&#039;t making a scriptural argument, as you have been, Msgr. Pope. He or she was talking about the state of the world today and that is the argument to which I was responding. Neither of us was discussing scripture. Also I have to respectfully chuckle at the invocation of what the Church has always taught being held up as a paragon of virtue. I think we can both surely agree that the Church has taught some pretty heinous things in its history. 

On a separate note I have to say I welcome the robust dialogue occurring in this forum. What a great idea for a blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon wasn&#8217;t making a scriptural argument, as you have been, Msgr. Pope. He or she was talking about the state of the world today and that is the argument to which I was responding. Neither of us was discussing scripture. Also I have to respectfully chuckle at the invocation of what the Church has always taught being held up as a paragon of virtue. I think we can both surely agree that the Church has taught some pretty heinous things in its history. </p>
<p>On a separate note I have to say I welcome the robust dialogue occurring in this forum. What a great idea for a blog!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3433</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3433</guid>
		<description>When seeking to define what a marriage is, I rarely hear reference to Matthew 19:4-5 (He said in reply, &quot;Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator &#039;made them male and female&#039; and said, &#039;For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh&#039;?).

Jesus told us what a marriage is before he even gave the prohibition on divorce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When seeking to define what a marriage is, I rarely hear reference to Matthew 19:4-5 (He said in reply, &#8220;Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator &#8216;made them male and female&#8217; and said, &#8216;For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh&#8217;?).</p>
<p>Jesus told us what a marriage is before he even gave the prohibition on divorce.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://blog.adw.org/2009/12/what-would-jesus-say-about-redefining-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-3430</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.adw.org/?p=4869#comment-3430</guid>
		<description>Fine point, Father.  But anon was off the mark as well.  If we are going to complain about a general spirit of tolerance, as &quot;anon&quot; did, you are amalgamating misogyny and racism along with these other issues.  That is why I say I am a pacificst in the culture wars.  There is too much of choosing one of two sides.  Each proposal and initiative should be considered on its own merits.  General assertions that we have too much &quot;tolerance&quot; or &quot;political correctness&quot;  or &quot;we need a return to traditional values&quot; are either meaningless, dangeruous or designed to serve a secular political agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine point, Father.  But anon was off the mark as well.  If we are going to complain about a general spirit of tolerance, as &#8220;anon&#8221; did, you are amalgamating misogyny and racism along with these other issues.  That is why I say I am a pacificst in the culture wars.  There is too much of choosing one of two sides.  Each proposal and initiative should be considered on its own merits.  General assertions that we have too much &#8220;tolerance&#8221; or &#8220;political correctness&#8221;  or &#8220;we need a return to traditional values&#8221; are either meaningless, dangeruous or designed to serve a secular political agenda.</p>
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