Comments on: The Problem of Privatized Religion http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/ Connecting the dots between Catholic faith and culture Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:06:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Peter Wolczuk http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-6447 Peter Wolczuk Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:49:56 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-6447 It seems to me that one aspect of this issue could be condensed down to "what we wish to hear" as opposed to "what we need to hear." When I find myself upset by something which is told to me it may be due, in a few cases, to something erroneous in the statement. Usually, however, it's due to my self destructive complacency being threatened by "what I need to hear." I've learned, with great difficulty, to look favourably on statements which bother me. Piling uncomfortable, but necessary, facts onto someone so fast and furious that they can't deal with it may cause them to withdraw however, those who have the courage to bring uncomfortable truths at a rate which allows for growth have been my best benefactors. Christ told us that we would learn the truth and that it would make us free (from sin) and some have since pointed out that it (usually) will, first of all, make us very angry. I don't know if this interpretation is true however, my personal experiences tend to support it. It seems to me that one aspect of this issue could be condensed down to “what we wish to hear” as opposed to “what we need to hear.” When I find myself upset by something which is told to me it may be due, in a few cases, to something erroneous in the statement. Usually, however, it’s due to my self destructive complacency being threatened by “what I need to hear.”
I’ve learned, with great difficulty, to look favourably on statements which bother me.
Piling uncomfortable, but necessary, facts onto someone so fast and furious that they can’t deal with it may cause them to withdraw however, those who have the courage to bring uncomfortable truths at a rate which allows for growth have been my best benefactors.
Christ told us that we would learn the truth and that it would make us free (from sin) and some have since pointed out that it (usually) will, first of all, make us very angry. I don’t know if this interpretation is true however, my personal experiences tend to support it.

]]> By: Kurt http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2324 Kurt Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:42:14 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2324 I understand from this blog and elsewhere Bishop Tobin made some comments about Congressman Kennedy. I really can't respond to what the Bishop said about the Congressman. Some months ago the Bishop wrote in the offical newspaper of his diocese a crude, bellicose and polemical conversation he imagined he had with the President. It struck me as something more like Glenn Beck (or Michael Moore, from the other end of politics) than from a shepherd of souls. He put words in the President's mouth and lowered both dignity of the Office of President and the Office of Bishop. Given this behavior and the fact I am not of his diocese, I really don't see any reason to bother listening to him. I understand from this blog and elsewhere Bishop Tobin made some comments about Congressman Kennedy. I really can’t respond to what the Bishop said about the Congressman. Some months ago the Bishop wrote in the offical newspaper of his diocese a crude, bellicose and polemical conversation he imagined he had with the President. It struck me as something more like Glenn Beck (or Michael Moore, from the other end of politics) than from a shepherd of souls. He put words in the President’s mouth and lowered both dignity of the Office of President and the Office of Bishop. Given this behavior and the fact I am not of his diocese, I really don’t see any reason to bother listening to him.

]]> By: Daniel Tobin http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2218 Daniel Tobin Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:17:22 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2218 If Catholic Bishops took seriously the upswing of this and many other articles directed at public servants who are Catholic, then two things would be manifestly different. First and foremost the same things would be communicated during homilies, said to parents requesting baptism for their children, as well as required of converts going through RCIA. But it isn't. Second, after a period of public and private discussion with entreaties to repent, bishops would ex-communicate wayward Catholics. But they don't. The failure they see in the Catholic faithful, is the failure of their own leadership. Bishops act like it is the catholic congressman who is responsible to reform the flock and through it world. Where in all of this is their responsibility? I don't see too many articles written about that. If Catholic Bishops took seriously the upswing of this and many other articles directed at public servants who are Catholic, then two things would be manifestly different. First and foremost the same things would be communicated during homilies, said to parents requesting baptism for their children, as well as required of converts going through RCIA. But it isn’t. Second, after a period of public and private discussion with entreaties to repent, bishops would ex-communicate wayward Catholics. But they don’t.
The failure they see in the Catholic faithful, is the failure of their own leadership. Bishops act like it is the catholic congressman who is responsible to reform the flock and through it world. Where in all of this is their responsibility? I don’t see too many articles written about that.

]]> By: Ken Heim http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2212 Ken Heim Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:41:14 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2212 The Church guides us down the "narrow way", which isn't especially easy. Of course people would prefer to take the "wide way", with all the latitude of freedom it offers. But the narrow way leads to salvation. So take up your cross and follow Christ. The Church guides us down the “narrow way”, which isn’t especially easy. Of course people would prefer to take the “wide way”, with all the latitude of freedom it offers. But the narrow way leads to salvation. So take up your cross and follow Christ.

]]> By: luzvimindarp http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2211 luzvimindarp Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:36:04 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2211 Good day greetings in Christ Msgr. Pope, I like to share with you a vision way back 1972 and God in His kindness has given me the privilege of answering some questions in my mind. I asked Jesus if there is a paradise, purgatory and hell and if possible can He show it to me. Every time I ask Jesus i always do it in prayer and fasting. And in my dream Jesus showed to me paradise it was pictured as a vast green land a quiet one, a very beautiful scenery and peaceful, i can see animals just wondering around and then we walk to a place and He showed me a room painted in white and I saw people dressed in white and to my surprise, I saw my favorite auntie inside the room but I asked Jesus, because I did not saw my father inside that room, where my father was? And Jesus just smiled at me. And then I asked Him where "hell" is and Jesus answered me.." it's a very far place you need to cross 7 mountains more from this place where we are standing." With that answer...i did not asked Him any further, instead, i just said " thank you" for the privilege of answering my question and giving me a chance to be with Him even in just a dream. I have observed as a catholics the actions of catholic leaders.. they put up their own group or organization making them different from others not knowing that it makes them away from the very essence of "being united in the body of Christ." because the tendency is that they make interpretation of the words in the Bible according to their own way and not God's way. When I accepted the gift of the Spirit in my life, it made me more fearful of God so much so that I have to ask guidance from the Priest every time we do Bible sharing in urban communities or BEC i always see to it that the interpretations must be in accordance to the teachings or interpretation of the Priest in the Homily and the only time that we are given freedom to express something is through our sharing of life in the spirit. I always follow the teaching of one of my favorite Monsignor Romano (may He rest in peace and I do believe it because Mama Mary told me to visit him on the day he died and accompany him to the airport..to where his body will be put to rest in their home province) when he told me to always pray 1 - I Believe (that would guide me of my faith as a catholic) 1-Our Father (in honor of our God the Creator) 1-Hail Mary (in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of our Savior Jesus Christ) and 1-Glory Be (in honor of the Triune God). When I feel week i meditate on those prayers and pray the Rosary to give me strength (that is what Mama Mary wants for her children on earth). Thanks again Msgr. Pope and God bless us always. Good day greetings in Christ Msgr. Pope, I like to share with you a vision way back 1972 and God in His kindness has given me the privilege of answering some questions in my mind. I asked Jesus if there is a paradise, purgatory and hell and if possible can He show it to me. Every time I ask Jesus i always do it in prayer and fasting. And in my dream Jesus showed to me paradise it was pictured as a vast green land a quiet one, a very beautiful scenery and peaceful, i can see animals just wondering around and then we walk to a place and He showed me a room painted in white and I saw people dressed in white and to my surprise, I saw my favorite auntie inside the room but I asked Jesus, because I did not saw my father inside that room, where my father was? And Jesus just smiled at me. And then I asked Him where “hell” is and Jesus answered me..” it’s a very far place you need to cross 7 mountains more from this place where we are standing.” With that answer…i did not asked Him any further, instead, i just said ” thank you” for the privilege of answering my question and giving me a chance to be with Him even in just a dream.

I have observed as a catholics the actions of catholic leaders.. they put up their own group or organization making them different from others not knowing that it makes them away from the very essence of “being united in the body of Christ.” because the tendency is that they make interpretation of the words in the Bible according to their own way and not God’s way. When I accepted the gift of the Spirit in my life, it made me more fearful of God so much so that I have to ask guidance from the Priest every time we do Bible sharing in urban communities or BEC i always see to it that the interpretations must be in accordance to the teachings or interpretation of the Priest in the Homily and the only time that we are given freedom to express something is through our sharing of life in the spirit. I always follow the teaching of one of my favorite Monsignor Romano (may He rest in peace and I do believe it because Mama Mary told me to visit him on the day he died and accompany him to the airport..to where his body will be put to rest in their home province) when he told me to always pray 1 – I Believe (that would guide me of my faith as a catholic) 1-Our Father (in honor of our God the Creator) 1-Hail Mary (in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of our Savior Jesus Christ) and 1-Glory Be (in honor of the Triune God). When I feel week i meditate on those prayers and pray the Rosary to give me strength (that is what Mama Mary wants for her children on earth). Thanks again Msgr. Pope and God bless us always.

]]> By: Msgr. Charles Pope http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2210 Msgr. Charles Pope Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:50:56 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2210 I guess the teacher meant "from the Chair" rather than fromm the See. But of course we have to accept more than that. We must accept all the dogma and doctrines formally revealed by God through the Church. While the Pope ratifies all such things, the magisterium is broader than the Pope speaking ex cathedra (from the chair). The vast majority of revealed doctrine comes from Councils of Church, the bishops in council speak in common and the Pope ratifies all ecumenical (i.e. Councils representing all the worlds bishops). In addition to the Councils, there is Scripture and those truths that are enshrined in the Apostolic Tradition. Now as to the notion that we Catholics cannot think for ourselves I would like to make two points. 1. Catholic Dogma is not so comprehensive that there is no room for diversity of thought and practice. What the dogmas and doctrines of the Church do is to set up guard rails beyond which we must not go but within which there is freedom, Take any given scripture passage. Catholic preachers will often draw a variety of interpretations from a text. One emphasizes one thing another emphasizes something else. The Church does not require only one view or interpretation. However there ARE some interpretations that go beyond what is permissible. Say a preacher denied the divinity of Christ, or perhaps that he really had worked a certain miracle. Suppose a preacher used a text to say that God was in fact powerless or non-existent. Such interpretations would go beyond the gurad rails. Your Protestant teacher would have to admit that even those Churches have some gurad rails, at least the evangelical Protestants do. Don't go into a conservative evangelical Church and deny the divinity of Chirst, they will not accept such an interpretation any more than a Catholic would. So Church teaching provides a framework, a playing field if you will that sets the terms for the discusssion but does not dictate every detail or conclusion in a micromanaging sort of way. Now the second thing I would like to say to your teacher is that completely independant thinking does not exist. We all have teachers and premises that both influence and limit our "free" thinking. For example, words have to mean things, grammar has to be obeyed for their to be communication. So called free thinking has its own premises and limits. As far as the Catechism goes we do have to accept what it formally teaches however the Catechism expresses doctrine which as I said above sets limits but permits discussion and variety with those limits. As for the USCCB most of what is said there is not binding on Catholics per se since it is not a doctrinal body. However when the USCCB reiterates Catholic teaching formally defined it is binding, not because the USCCB said it but because it is revealed doctrine. There are disciplinary norms the USCCB might issue that bind Catholics but only if their local Bishop promulgates its. Disciplinary norms are not doctrine and they can a dn do change but for the sake of good order Catholics should observe disciplinary norms. I guess the teacher meant “from the Chair” rather than fromm the See. But of course we have to accept more than that. We must accept all the dogma and doctrines formally revealed by God through the Church. While the Pope ratifies all such things, the magisterium is broader than the Pope speaking ex cathedra (from the chair). The vast majority of revealed doctrine comes from Councils of Church, the bishops in council speak in common and the Pope ratifies all ecumenical (i.e. Councils representing all the worlds bishops). In addition to the Councils, there is Scripture and those truths that are enshrined in the Apostolic Tradition. Now as to the notion that we Catholics cannot think for ourselves I would like to make two points. 1. Catholic Dogma is not so comprehensive that there is no room for diversity of thought and practice. What the dogmas and doctrines of the Church do is to set up guard rails beyond which we must not go but within which there is freedom, Take any given scripture passage. Catholic preachers will often draw a variety of interpretations from a text. One emphasizes one thing another emphasizes something else. The Church does not require only one view or interpretation. However there ARE some interpretations that go beyond what is permissible. Say a preacher denied the divinity of Christ, or perhaps that he really had worked a certain miracle. Suppose a preacher used a text to say that God was in fact powerless or non-existent. Such interpretations would go beyond the gurad rails. Your Protestant teacher would have to admit that even those Churches have some gurad rails, at least the evangelical Protestants do. Don’t go into a conservative evangelical Church and deny the divinity of Chirst, they will not accept such an interpretation any more than a Catholic would. So Church teaching provides a framework, a playing field if you will that sets the terms for the discusssion but does not dictate every detail or conclusion in a micromanaging sort of way. Now the second thing I would like to say to your teacher is that completely independant thinking does not exist. We all have teachers and premises that both influence and limit our “free” thinking. For example, words have to mean things, grammar has to be obeyed for their to be communication. So called free thinking has its own premises and limits.

As far as the Catechism goes we do have to accept what it formally teaches however the Catechism expresses doctrine which as I said above sets limits but permits discussion and variety with those limits. As for the USCCB most of what is said there is not binding on Catholics per se since it is not a doctrinal body. However when the USCCB reiterates Catholic teaching formally defined it is binding, not because the USCCB said it but because it is revealed doctrine. There are disciplinary norms the USCCB might issue that bind Catholics but only if their local Bishop promulgates its. Disciplinary norms are not doctrine and they can a dn do change but for the sake of good order Catholics should observe disciplinary norms.

]]> By: Glaucon http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2209 Glaucon Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:33:08 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2209 My high school theology teacher brought up this point: He said that Protestants often argue that, "you Catholics don't get to think for yourselves, yadda yadda." My teacher replies that the only things we Catholics absolutely have to accept as facts are those which the Pope says "from the see," an event which happens very infrequently. What's your take on this analysis? Must we accept every word in the Catechism and from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to be good Catholics? If so, aren't the Protestants right to mock our lemming-like devotion to consensus? My high school theology teacher brought up this point:

He said that Protestants often argue that, “you Catholics don’t get to think for yourselves, yadda yadda.” My teacher replies that the only things we Catholics absolutely have to accept as facts are those which the Pope says “from the see,” an event which happens very infrequently.

What’s your take on this analysis? Must we accept every word in the Catechism and from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to be good Catholics? If so, aren’t the Protestants right to mock our lemming-like devotion to consensus?

]]> By: anon http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2206 anon Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:16:47 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2206 I thought I must have heard Maria Shriver wrong when I heard her said that. Anyone who would be proud to be a cafeteria Catholic obviously, like her cousin, has no idea what it means to be Catholic! I thought I must have heard Maria Shriver wrong when I heard her said that. Anyone who would be proud to be a cafeteria Catholic obviously, like her cousin, has no idea what it means to be Catholic!

]]> By: Rouxfus http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2205 Rouxfus Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:47:26 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2205 I have been blessed for the last couple of years to be able to use a <i>Roman Missal (1962)</i> (Baronius Press) as a handy daily prayer resource, and as a missal whenever I'm able to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form, which is quite beautiful. The Missal has a wonderful chapter "Devotions for Communion" with excellent prayers for before and after receiving communion, "Devotions for Confession" which has prayers for before and after making a confession, as well as an examination of conscience guide to help me make a good confession. There's also a mini-Catechism describing the doctrines of the faith. It's a very complete and helpful guide. The section "Most Necessary Prayers" has lots of great prayers and litanies, including the above-mentioned Act of Faith, as well as the Acts of Hope, Charity, and Contrition. They also include a section on suggested Morning and Evening Prayers during which the Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity are recited. So, Everyday faithful lay Catholics were taught, as recently as 1962 (the year I was born and Vatican II was convened) to recite the Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity at the <i>beginning and end of every day</i>! We seem to have lost sight of this basic, but essential form of Catholic spirituality - that is to assert in prayer what it is we believe, every day. I have been blessed for the last couple of years to be able to use a Roman Missal (1962) (Baronius Press) as a handy daily prayer resource, and as a missal whenever I’m able to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form, which is quite beautiful. The Missal has a wonderful chapter “Devotions for Communion” with excellent prayers for before and after receiving communion, “Devotions for Confession” which has prayers for before and after making a confession, as well as an examination of conscience guide to help me make a good confession. There’s also a mini-Catechism describing the doctrines of the faith. It’s a very complete and helpful guide.

The section “Most Necessary Prayers” has lots of great prayers and litanies, including the above-mentioned Act of Faith, as well as the Acts of Hope, Charity, and Contrition. They also include a section on suggested Morning and Evening Prayers during which the Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity are recited. So, Everyday faithful lay Catholics were taught, as recently as 1962 (the year I was born and Vatican II was convened) to recite the Acts of Faith, Hope and Charity at the beginning and end of every day!

We seem to have lost sight of this basic, but essential form of Catholic spirituality – that is to assert in prayer what it is we believe, every day.

]]> By: Msgr. Charles Pope http://blog.adw.org/2009/11/the-problem-of-privatized-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-2197 Msgr. Charles Pope Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:12:10 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4335#comment-2197 Thanks for recalling the fact that the Church is a huge provider of healthcare. Susan Timoney made this point about a month ago in a blog post here. I would also agree with your other points, especially the point that indicates the congressman is guilty of more than privatizing the faith. This is true, hostility to the free exercise of our faith and the right of the bishops and other Catholics is also among his transgressions. Being part of a national discussion does not mean that we are "fanning the flames of discord." His remarks indicate hostility to the Church. Thanks for recalling the fact that the Church is a huge provider of healthcare. Susan Timoney made this point about a month ago in a blog post here. I would also agree with your other points, especially the point that indicates the congressman is guilty of more than privatizing the faith. This is true, hostility to the free exercise of our faith and the right of the bishops and other Catholics is also among his transgressions. Being part of a national discussion does not mean that we are “fanning the flames of discord.” His remarks indicate hostility to the Church.

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