Comments on: Beyond the Rhetoric: Why Not Mary? http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/ Connecting the dots between Catholic faith and culture Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:30:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Armand Ram http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-3317 Armand Ram Tue, 15 Dec 2009 02:19:06 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-3317 kulandairaj, yes I've been noticing many prophecies prior to our Lord coming have been fulfilled and many others have not. yet I don't think that's the point in this sort of dialogue we have. the original point is getting scripturally evidence as to whether Mary is what my Catholic religion taught me from childhood and up till now I honestly tell you none of your well intentioned answers satisfy me. the problem is I'm encountering the same or even worse explanations from many priests and writers. for instance when I read Jesus saying woman behold your son... behold your mother it is easy for me to relate that with other episodes and teachings of the apostles like the fact that Jesus brothers did not believe in him till after the resurrection so he entrusted his mother to one of his disciples. also taking into account it was quite clear in the Lord's mind his family was those who heard the Father and did his will along with the apotles' teachings that we are to behave as brothers appealing to older men and women as father/mothers and the younger women as sisters. anyway, this adventure of discovering the scriptures has been more exciting, instructive and beneficial than anything. good bye kulandairaj,
yes I’ve been noticing many prophecies prior to our Lord coming have been fulfilled and many others have not. yet I don’t think that’s the point in this sort of dialogue we have. the original point is getting scripturally evidence as to whether Mary is what my Catholic religion taught me from childhood and up till now I honestly tell you none of your well intentioned answers satisfy me. the problem is I’m encountering the same or even worse explanations from many priests and writers. for instance when I read Jesus saying woman behold your son… behold your mother it is easy for me to relate that with other episodes and teachings of the apostles like the fact that Jesus brothers did not believe in him till after the resurrection so he entrusted his mother to one of his disciples. also taking into account it was quite clear in the Lord’s mind his family was those who heard the Father and did his will along with the apotles’ teachings that we are to behave as brothers appealing to older men and women as father/mothers and the younger women as sisters.

anyway, this adventure of discovering the scriptures has been more exciting, instructive and beneficial than anything. good bye

]]> By: kulandairaj http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-3225 kulandairaj Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:45:53 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-3225 Armand Ram.humble salutations.Regarding old testament prophesies ther are two types 1. prophesies full of blessings and 2. prophesies full of curses.Jesus did not fulfill the curses but only the blessings For example Luke 4-14-16 The spirit of the lord is upon me etc.He stopped with the year of the lord and he did not go beyond in the Isaiah ,for the next sentence is a curse.Threfore one need not adhere to the old. for jesus fullfilled the entire wishes of the 'abba' the Father .It may be because of a feminine of the godhood our church might have given over emphasis on Mary, but her role in the salvation is always there Happy christmas and new year 2010 Armand Ram.humble salutations.Regarding old testament prophesies ther are two types 1. prophesies full of blessings and 2. prophesies full of curses.Jesus did not fulfill the curses but only the blessings For example Luke 4-14-16 The spirit of the lord is upon me etc.He stopped with the year of the lord and he did not go beyond in the Isaiah ,for the next sentence is a curse.Threfore one need not adhere to the old. for jesus fullfilled the entire wishes of the ‘abba’ the Father .It may be because of a feminine of the godhood our church might have given over emphasis on Mary, but her role in the salvation is always there Happy christmas and new year 2010

]]> By: Armand Ram http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2805 Armand Ram Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:03:49 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2805 kulaindaraj, if traditions and customs contradict the word of God we have to decide which to keep. remember what the Lord Jesus said about traditions of men voiding the word of God in mark chapter 7? I've already started reading John Chrysostom and found several misinterpretations regarding Israel. so how could I believe what he says when he is clearly contradiciting the law the prophets the gospels and the letters? It' time for us to read think and speak by ourselves after all the very bible instructs us to meditate and be absorbed in the things it has so that we have a better understanding. actually I had never realized the treasure we have in the scriptures. I lost almost all of my life paying attention to other sources plus spending my life in satisfying my selfish appetites. now that I turn the bible pages I find the perfect mirror to my person's conditions and the proper measures to get clean and learn how to be faithful to our Lord. I have read other theologians' works at least partially and have found tons of contradictions whereas between the writings of the Prophets and those of the Gospels I see there is perfect agreement. Sure I'll keep on consulting as many theological works as possible but I realize I should take the holy scriptures as the basis for any true doctrine. kulaindaraj,
if traditions and customs contradict the word of God we have to decide which to keep. remember what the Lord Jesus said about traditions of men voiding the word of God in mark chapter 7? I’ve already started reading John Chrysostom and found several misinterpretations regarding Israel. so how could I believe what he says when he is clearly contradiciting the law the prophets the gospels and the letters? It’ time for us to read think and speak by ourselves after all the very bible instructs us to meditate and be absorbed in the things it has so that we have a better understanding. actually I had never realized the treasure we have in the scriptures. I lost almost all of my life paying attention to other sources plus spending my life in satisfying my selfish appetites. now that I turn the bible pages I find the perfect mirror to my person’s conditions and the proper measures to get clean and learn how to be faithful to our Lord. I have read other theologians’ works at least partially and have found tons of contradictions whereas between the writings of the Prophets and those of the Gospels I see there is perfect agreement. Sure I’ll keep on consulting as many theological works as possible but I realize I should take the holy scriptures as the basis for any true doctrine.

]]> By: kulandairaj http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2651 kulandairaj Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:50:10 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2651 Armand Ram All records are not available in the Bile. One thing is certain, that is the church came first and the bible came second. The bible is only a mini record of what had had happened some three thousand years ago .You know that the written form of the bible came only around 1200 B:C:The genesis happenings were passed onto generations by verbal communication and oral method as practised elwhere in the world Therfore one need not abide by the facts available only in the bible . There are traditions and customs.What about the great thologians like Christodom Thomas Aquinas Saint Teresa of child Jesus Ignatius of loyola who accepted what the present day catholics believe. Pleas ponder Armand Ram All records are not available in the Bile. One thing is certain, that is the church came first and the bible came second. The bible is only a mini record of what had had happened some three thousand years ago .You know that the written form of the bible came only around 1200 B:C:The genesis happenings were passed onto generations by verbal communication and oral method as practised elwhere in the world Therfore one need not abide by the facts available only in the bible . There are traditions and customs.What about the great thologians like Christodom Thomas Aquinas Saint Teresa of child Jesus Ignatius of loyola who accepted what the present day catholics believe. Pleas ponder

]]> By: Armand Ram http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2423 Armand Ram Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:33:56 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2423 kulandairaj, on nov 2 you wrote ...Mary was foretold in the book of Genesis 3:12that she would crush the serpent... but what I read was ...And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel genesis 3:15. what I understand is what it actually says... he shall bruise ... can we see? it's he not she. I've noticed how many times Mary is often pictured as stepping on a snake. that's what I see in many paintings and sculptures down here and really the bible does not show her that way. we all should pay closer attention to what we read, hear, or meditate... now regarding martin luther's beliefs or for that matter any other person all I want to know and see is the words of God that back up any of their claims without the least doubt. the reason why I say this is that any one of us can be deceived sooner or later. that's on the bible too. and I know it first hand because I've been deceived in so many things... it's been only through reading the bible that I've been realizing lots of errors and bad things in myself but thanks God He has had answers for each one of them. kulandairaj, on nov 2 you wrote …Mary was foretold in the book of Genesis 3:12that she would crush the serpent… but what I read was …And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel genesis 3:15. what I understand is what it actually says… he shall bruise … can we see? it’s he not she. I’ve noticed how many times Mary is often pictured as stepping on a snake. that’s what I see in many paintings and sculptures down here and really the bible does not show her that way. we all should pay closer attention to what we read, hear, or meditate… now regarding martin luther’s beliefs or for that matter any other person all I want to know and see is the words of God that back up any of their claims without the least doubt. the reason why I say this is that any one of us can be deceived sooner or later. that’s on the bible too. and I know it first hand because I’ve been deceived in so many things… it’s been only through reading the bible that I’ve been realizing lots of errors and bad things in myself but thanks God He has had answers for each one of them.

]]> By: Kulandairaj http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2407 Kulandairaj Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:44:39 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2407 Dear Monsg. Pope , Peace of chirist It is more than a fortnight since the moderation is kept pending on the topic "Mary". I know that you had been to the Holy Land and by this time you might have returned to your headquarters Please start moderation . It is good going .My prayers and greetings to all a very HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR 2010 Dear Monsg. Pope , Peace of chirist It is more than a fortnight since the moderation is kept pending on the topic “Mary”. I know that you had been to the Holy Land and by this time you might have returned to your headquarters Please start moderation . It is good going .My prayers and greetings to all a very HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR 2010

]]> By: kulandairaj http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2072 kulandairaj Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:37:41 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2072 Armand Ram, Luke says " from now on all people will call me blessed" in the Magnificat. Then why do you hesitate to call Her "blessed " Even Martin Luther did not deny the holiness of Mary and her intercession.He believed what the present day Catholic believes . It is only the spiritual ignorant or the heard hearted people who want mud slinging on hte catholic church says hat Ma ry is not tobe venerated. Even Luther denied Mary having children apart from Jesus. As Msgr. Charles says that doctrinally there is no compromise, Some enthusisasts may differ . But the catholic doctrine is as strong as a rock Armand Ram, Luke says ” from now on all people will call me blessed” in the Magnificat. Then why do you hesitate to call Her “blessed ” Even Martin Luther did not deny the holiness of Mary and her intercession.He believed what the present day Catholic believes . It is only the spiritual ignorant or the heard hearted people who want mud slinging on hte catholic church says hat Ma ry is not tobe venerated. Even Luther denied Mary having children apart from Jesus. As Msgr. Charles says that doctrinally there is no compromise, Some enthusisasts may differ . But the catholic doctrine is as strong as a rock

]]> By: Msgr. Charles Pope http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2047 Msgr. Charles Pope Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:21:46 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2047 Certainly purification is always necessary, not in the Catholic doctrine of Mary but in the practice of individual Catholics from time to time. There have been some pious notions that individuals can adopt that are either supersticious or excessive. But Catholic doctrine on Mary has always been very sober, biblical, and theologially based. Certainly purification is always necessary, not in the Catholic doctrine of Mary but in the practice of individual Catholics from time to time. There have been some pious notions that individuals can adopt that are either supersticious or excessive. But Catholic doctrine on Mary has always been very sober, biblical, and theologially based.

]]> By: Armand Ram http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2046 Armand Ram Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:53:51 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2046 as I said in the beginning just recently did I start taking bigger interest in the catholic faith I was inculcated with from childhood. in this part of my life (47) this is the first time I seriously search for answers right from the bible because I wanted to know where my religion came from. and I as I've already said too I can't see either the lord Jesus or the apostles bestowing the kind of honor we are taught to give to Mary. I am a Latin American and really start to wonder about this and other things related to the veneration on Mary. Now you say it has to do with 2000 years of tradition. wouldn't it be possible that some part of tradition couldn't get it quite right and per chance it needs some modification more according to what was said through the writers of the bible? as I said in the beginning just recently did I start taking bigger interest in the catholic faith I was inculcated with from childhood. in this part of my life (47) this is the first time I seriously search for answers right from the bible because I wanted to know where my religion came from. and I as I’ve already said too I can’t see either the lord Jesus or the apostles bestowing the kind of honor we are taught to give to Mary. I am a Latin American and really start to wonder about this and other things related to the veneration on Mary. Now you say it has to do with 2000 years of tradition. wouldn’t it be possible that some part of tradition couldn’t get it quite right and per chance it needs some modification more according to what was said through the writers of the bible?

]]> By: Msgr. Charles Pope http://blog.adw.org/2009/10/beyond-the-rhetoric-why-not-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-2035 Msgr. Charles Pope Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:10:41 +0000 http://blog.adw.org/?p=4126#comment-2035 Go deeper, Armand. Christian Tradition for 2000 years has seen more at work here. There are rich layers. Yours is not incorrect, it just seems according to me and 2000 years of Tradition, a little less rich. Why Mary, why not the couple? Why Mary, not the Steward? Why Mary not one of the other disciples? Why Mary not John Smith who just came from the wine supply and was told "we're out." If you are wainting for an "ipsisimus verba Jesus" (exact words of Christ) which say "go to Mary" then a lot of things are going to be lacking in your faith. For example the word "Trinity" never left Jesus' lips. Jesus never said to the apostles "write a book" nor did he say to us "Read the Gospels" Neither did the apostles say any of these things. Neither did the apostles or Jesus say, "No longer Saturday for Church now Susnday" I would argue that all these things, including Mary's intercession come from the Apostolic Tradition but it looks like for you if it's not in the book in written form you're not convinced. OK but just realize a LOT of Christian doctrine isn't spelled outthe way you insist. The Church wrestled with scripture and came to understand its deeper meaning and hence we have developed the doctrin of the Trinity etc. I invite you to a far richer world! Go deeper, Armand. Christian Tradition for 2000 years has seen more at work here. There are rich layers. Yours is not incorrect, it just seems according to me and 2000 years of Tradition, a little less rich. Why Mary, why not the couple? Why Mary, not the Steward? Why Mary not one of the other disciples? Why Mary not John Smith who just came from the wine supply and was told “we’re out.” If you are wainting for an “ipsisimus verba Jesus” (exact words of Christ) which say “go to Mary” then a lot of things are going to be lacking in your faith. For example the word “Trinity” never left Jesus’ lips. Jesus never said to the apostles “write a book” nor did he say to us “Read the Gospels” Neither did the apostles say any of these things. Neither did the apostles or Jesus say, “No longer Saturday for Church now Susnday” I would argue that all these things, including Mary’s intercession come from the Apostolic Tradition but it looks like for you if it’s not in the book in written form you’re not convinced. OK but just realize a LOT of Christian doctrine isn’t spelled outthe way you insist. The Church wrestled with scripture and came to understand its deeper meaning and hence we have developed the doctrin of the Trinity etc. I invite you to a far richer world!

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